1. we don’t discover truth and reality with a magic wand from outer space
- i agree. it takes hard work and clear thinking to do that. sometimes pointers from others help too, and if God exists, i wouldn’t be surprised if he helped people along…

2. truth (as discussed by plato, aristotle et al) was being discussed long before Jesus arrived on the scene
- true… but then again the Christian concept of Jesus, as the Son of God, includes his existence from eternity past to eternity future (cf John 1:1, “in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” and later, in John 1:14, “and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth…” therefore the Word here, equivalent to what i was referring to as absolute Truth in my previous comment, refers to Jesus)
- i’m not sure if i’m explaining it well, but that would mean that from a Christian point of view Jesus/Truth pre-existed before the creation of anything…
- therefore, if God/Jesus is truth, then all truth is God’s truth; and to the extent that plato and aristotle discovered Truth through their discussions, they discovered God.

3. do you believe in the Old Testament of the Bible?
- yes i do.
- however i also believe that some things have been misunderstood or are not meant to be taken 100% literally (my fundamentalist friends are gonna kill me).
- i’m willing to discuss issues in greater detail if necessary (and if michael nugent doesn’t mind)
- since you mention the flood, i do not believe that it was a global catastrophe but rather a localised event. man hadn’t spread very far across the globe yet though, so to their experience the whole world was wiped out. incidentally there are many creation myths from other religions and cultures which include a flood account (e.g. the epic of gilgamesh), which suggests that there actually was a devastating flood sometime in the cradle of human civilisation.

4. limbo
- i’m not a roman catholic, so i don’t believe in limbo either, except as a figure of speech =P
- if the church believed in limbo for umpteen years, they got it wrong, not God

5. the God of the Old Testament is jealous and vindictive
- well, he pretty much admits it! (exodus 20:5 – “I the Lord your God am a jealous God…”)
- however, we must realize that if God exists, he has a right to be jealous. just like my wife has a right to be jealous if she sees me flirting with another woman, because she is the woman who deserves my love and fidelity; God has a right to be jealous if He sees us worshipping other gods, because He is the only One who deserves our worship and adoration.
- i suppose in the u.k. hardly anyone worships idols, unlike here in malaysia; but many other things can become “gods” to us – money, possessions, relationships… anything that becomes more important to us than God.
- this helps to explain about the story of abraham and isaac (which i believe you referred to, “encouraging men to sacrifice their sons)
- i believe that isaac had become an idol to abraham… more important to him than God… and therefore it was necessary for God to put him through the emotional turmoil of choosing between Him and isaac.
- this was not for God’s benefit; God already knew the ultimate outcome of the test. it was for Abraham’s own benefit… for him to reorder his priorities and give God His rightful place as numreo uno in his life.
- as for God murdering and smiting whole tribes, this would be monstrous for a human to do but not for God.
- after all, life and death is in God’s hands. who decides when a man will die of cancer, or heart attack, or a car accident? apart from natural explanations and human culpability, if i believe in a God who is in control of all things, then i must say that He is the One who decides when and how people die.
- if so, then it isn’t such a big deal if He should decree that some people should be killed by warriors of His chosen people rather than some other cause.
- it is wrong for a person to kill people (murder) because that person would be playing God (deciding that a person has lived long enough and it’s time for them to die). it’s not wrong for God to play God though; He IS God.

6. religion is an evil form of brainwashing
- in some cases, this is true.
- that is not what true Christianity is supposed to be like.
- i grew up in a Christian family but i was never taught to hate others in the name of religion.
- the view of people being punished and sent to hell because of slightly different beliefs is abit simplistic.
- i do not believe that any person can say with certainty whether another person will go to hell. only God knows that.
- i believe that people go to hell because they reject God.
- what i mean is that people go to hell because they reject the true God – your rejection of a caricature of God (jealous, vindictive old spoilsport in the sky) is a different matter. i’d reject that god too.
- unfortunately, most people reject God, either explicitly (“God, i hate you, and even if you existed i wouldn’t have anything to do with you) or by their actions (they live as if there is no God, as if they are their own God)
- God is always trying to reveal Himself to people. i believe that if people could see Him as He really is, His love and compassion and kindness, they wouldn’t reject Him quite so quickly.

7. my argument makes no sense
- i’ve tried to systematically respond to each of the issues you’ve brought up
- however, none of these issues have actually addressed the main point of my argument
- the main point of my argument was, without God, there is no basis for reality and truth
- we could be living in the matrix for all we know. my Buddhist and Hindhu friends believe this, calling this world maya (illusion). and there’s really no way (that i know of) to prove that the world we live in is real or that our human conception of truth is valid.
- Christians, however, believe that the world we live in is real and that we can seek and find the truth because ultimately Reality and Truth are anchored in God.

i hope you’re enjoying this conversation as much as i am =)

I’m an aetheist/secular humanist and we don’t exactly discover ‘truth and reality’ with a magic wand from outer space. I personally read science and philosophy books and I accept the theory of evolution and Plato, Aristotle etc. were discussing the nature of man and justice and society long before Jesus arrived on the scene.

What I would argue is that reason at this time convinces me that there is no supernatural god but reason could also convince me that there is a supernatural god. Many rational?, educated Christians do not believe in creationism or the flood. Do you believe in the old testament of the Bible?

Should anybody provide me with a reasonable and rational explanation of a god, I would certainly look at it and consider the arguments.

I love your language “limbo of truthlessness”. It is my understanding that the “absolute truth” of a place such as “limbo” is no longer recognised by the Catholic Church. If there exists this “absolute truth” and “all-knowing god” how come “HE” got it wrong for so long. I read the Bible at 14 years old and I didn’t like the old man. I thought he was a pretty vain, jealous and vindictive guy in the old testament, encouraging men to sacrifice their sons and wreaking havoc and murdering and smiting down whole tribes. I haven’t changed my mind.

In the western world as I grew up we learned about the brainwashing of people in communist societies. Is there any greater brainwashing than that of religion, teaching young children to hate others in the name of religion and how you will be punished and how others will go to hell because they have slightly different beliefs to you?

So, your argument makes no sense. There is no rational argument to support the existence of a supernatural being. There are many arguments as to why “it” does not exist.

May your god bless you.

my name is siehjin, and i’m a Christian from Malaysia (a small country in southeast asia).

as a Christian, i believe that Truth and Reality are rooted in God. i understand that, as an atheist, you reject this idea and believe that as humans we have to discover Truth and Reality for ourselves (which would be true even if God were the ultimate Truth and Reality, as we’d still have to discover Him ourselves… but nevermind that).

the problem, to me, is that there can be no solid basis for Truth and Reality in the absence of God… truth then becomes relative, some truths being true only for certain people and other truths being true for others. (am i making sense here?) in this understanding of the world, the only Truth is that there is no absolute Truth. perhaps this is implied in your second last paragraph, “it is impossible for anybody to be certain about anything”.

now the problem with this relativistic truth statement is that, it commits suicide. if there is no absolute Truth, then it is not absolutely True that there is no absolute Truth. there may be no absolute Truth for you, but there may be absolute Truth for me. in the end, we have a confusing hodge-podge where there is nothing is essentially true! to use your own words, if it is “impossible for anybody to be certain about anything”, then it is impossible for you to be certain that it is “impossible for anybody to be certain about anything”. therefore, it is possible for somebody to be certain about something; but that isn’t certain either.

i hope i’m not boring you with all this. it’s like that statement, “i never tell the truth”. if it’s true, i’m lying; but if i’m lying, it’s true.

not only is this relativistic position on truth impossible to hold on to philosophically; i don’t think it works in real life either. no one can live in a continuous limbo of truthlessness. all of us live as if there were such a thing as truth, absolute Truth. atheists, for example (correct me if i’m wrong) believe that it is True that there is no God. the very logical and rational way you write, presupposes that logic and rationality lead us to Truth.

therefore, i reject the notion that there is no such thing as absolute Truth. i believe rather that there is such a thing as absolute Truth, and i call this absolute Truth “God”. interestingly enough, Jesus claimed to be “the Way, the TRUTH, and the Life”.

looking forward to your responses to my thoughts. may God, if He exists, bless you! =)