Comments on: Welcome to Atheist Ireland

By: MasterGikiti Lí

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By: Paddy Crean

Paddy Crean — Thu, 18 Mar 2010 12:31:48 +0000

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By: Thomas Mckenna

Thomas Mckenna — Sat, 29 Aug 2009 04:37:41 +0000

Hi Keith,
Yeah…..apologies for the deist label.- Frankly it was more of a question than an accusation.
I’ve spent a lot of time dealing with theist accusations of late, that any lack of certainty, is an admission that god exists, and exactly as described by the scribes of our “inspired” , – sheepherding, desert dwelling, nomadic bronze age, superstitious, forebearers.
I had occasion to voice my concerns,arising from their misleading intellectual dishonesty, to the producers of a show on Revelation TV.
My problem their decision to invite “Dr Grady McMurtry” to lecture on “How science proves the bible”.
My chief complaint , apart from the fact he has no related science/academic credentials (and they offered no disclaimer to this effect), was that he told lies that even I could refute from my limited knowledge. Further, he insisted that real scientist were some kind atheist conspiracy to undermine the authority of the almighty!
Although I went to great pains to be open about my lack of believe, I pointed out that my chief concern was their apparent willingness to mislead their viewers about what scientists can really establish, and demonstrate, as fact.
I had no complaints about their personal beliefs beyond that, and in fact, obvious dishonesty was not the way to validate their faith. Wouldn’t REAL experts help everyone get at the truth – whatever it was?
Of course they immediately made it a point of my atheism!
The reply I got was from their intellectual “champion” Tim Vince, who immediately suspended his unquestioning belief in a 6,000 Y.O. universe, and opened with “Where did the energy come from for the Big Bang?”….He went on to explain that Einsteinian physics prove God, and that the formation of matter, and the evolution, against the odds,of cellular life etc… was a miracle that could only be supernatural.
Needless to say I dealt with these points as easily as any rational mind would. Unfortunately, that seemed to be his “A” game and he seemed to have little else left. However,undaunted in defeat, he passed me over to his “less intellectual” coleagues ,Yemi and Howard.
Howard immediately passed the buck, saying that his faith comes from “supernatural experience” rather than rationality or evidence.
Yemi, pretty much the same, citing an anecdote about the “laying on of hands” curing a broken arm in Africa some years ago.
He also offered the quote from Isaiah about the “circle” of the earth……and how truly inspired and enlightened the biblical “prophets”.
In the midst of all this, I’d managed to shame an invitation to show out of them, to discuss these issues.
However, they seem to be hiding from me, and have ignored my last 2 emails to discuss arrangements.
The 2 points I would like to make from this is:
1. Theists ALWAYS want to make information offered (even unintentionally), that isn’t exactly what they preach, seem like an evil conspiracy against all that is good.
2. Whatever they want to tell you, no matter how irrational , is to to be accepted without opposition or question, and arguments are good ONLY when they get to win, which , of course, can only happen when there is no opposition at all!
As if I haven’t been long winded enough, I will get to my original point……”I don’t know” is one of the most beautiful phrases I can think of. It can immediatley precede “let’s find out” . We then get to use our sentinece to explore reality. which is the whole point of sentience and existance in the first place. the more we can know is real, the more real existance is.
Placing “God” in those places and denying the right to enquire further, denies us that great right to be cognsicent, and sensual beings human.
That is why religion is the real immorality.

By: Kieth Rankin

Kieth Rankin — Sat, 29 Aug 2009 00:10:13 +0000

Michael – and Thomas too,

Thanks for the mail. Every thinking person does a disservice to himself/herself by inadvertently putting themselves into an ever smaller group – by thinking; sometimes better to be part of the homogenized mass. It does get lonely. Na, I do not consider myself part of the intelligentsia. Some things are rather obvious; one just has to open the eyes. Why is that so difficult?

I still feel that this “event” was started by an unexplained force – that has NOTHING to do with religion; it ONLY has to do with science. It is not magic – or “supernatural”. If it happened, then it is natural. And PLEASE, no accusations about being “new age”. (No, you did not say that)

In the event that there is a second “session” we may come back as bugs; hey, and not even the same gender. In that case, all other bugs will look normal; it will be the humans that are frightening. We may come back as animals; maybe cattle – going to the slaughterhouse! Think of the terror of these animals.

Anyway, I do not want to go to “heaven”. I prefer better company than the nutters. Imagine becoming an angel and growing feathers; think I would change my skin cream.

One thing to consider, because we are thinkers, or hopefully so, we are more obligated to lead ethical lives, even more so than the religious types. We have no excuses.

Keith

By: Michael Nugent

Michael Nugent — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 16:37:30 +0000

Thomas and Keith,

Thanks for the interesting exchange. I think this is really a difference in what words we use to describe the same concept.

Keith, for me, atheism is not a claim of certainty. It is an assertion of my belief that there are no gods (or my lack of belief that there are gods, but it is still a statement about beliefs and not about certainty).

To borrow your terminology and build on it, I do not “create” non-god, I assert non-god because I believe non-god based on applying reason to the apparent evidence of my senses.

I can see nothing in your description of your beliefs about nature that would cause me to not describe myself as an atheist.

By: Keith Rankin

Keith Rankin — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 16:22:12 +0000

Thomas,

First, thanks for the comment. Over a few pints, or coffee, we may get to a “more” united consensus; we already agree on a few things.

I will not create “non-god”, as atheist do. But wait, that is one of the possibilities. What I said was the whole “mess” was started by some force and at some time – then I used the silliest “force”, a cardboard box, that I could think of. Truth is, it may be that weird. I have a t-shirt and on the front is imprinted, “Sartre’s answering machine: I’m not here,You’re not here, Don’t leave a message, There is no beep.” So there is no start to this by a “force” – and you are not here either.

I was a little ticked at being called a “deist”. Religion, ALL of it, is an invention, held up by the most vulgar lies and brutal murders – in the name of “their loving gods.”

On the other hand, Nature is. Nature has never revealed to anyone “why” – not even “the chosen few.” Nature is not “nice”; nature just is. By necessity, either the cat catches the deer and eats or it dies. It is brutal and nasty. When mankind has finally blown himself to bits and taken his invented gods with him, the bugs and worms will come out of some hiddy-hole and they will rule the world. Mankind will just be an insignificant notation in history. It will just be another part of an apparently, random acts of nature.

Yin and Yang! When one is as evil as that “good Christian”, G. W. Bush, equilibrium must be reestablished. It is my hope that he is repaid. But I have no idea of nature; maybe it IS evil that rules all. But just in case, I still believe the axim, “Don’t do wrong if you do not want it done in return.”

Keith Rankin

By: Thomas Mckenna

Thomas Mckenna — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 06:38:22 +0000

No argument here, except in what seems to be your definition of atheism!
I am an atheist because I’m agnostic. That is to say: I do not believe in any God because there is no reason to state any knowledge of one.
However, philosophically speaking, I am not omniscient enough to assert with certainty, that someone’s definition of God doesn’t exist somewhere in the universe.
I can however, state with certainty that Christianity, for example, is the creation of human minds more morally and educationally fallible than mine.
Also,I can assert that much of the information that they base their beliefs on is incorrect.
I think you’ll find that most atheists are agnostics and vice versa. Only theists fully claim knowledge, which is why they are philosophically illogical, or need to be intellectually dishonest, to support their faith , in my opinion

According to your description, you could better describe yourself as a deist.

By: K Rankin

K Rankin — Wed, 26 Aug 2009 15:07:28 +0000

I will be brief.

I believe in no man-made religions nor do I believe in any of the thousands of “one-true religions”. From there there is a divergence with atheist.

We are so primitive; science as yet, has not even provided a way to communicate with persons who have been altered by death. No one was around 13 billion years ago as “this” universe began. There is now open talk of the multi universe. Even with these supposed, unending universes, the question could be posed in a different way: How small are they?.

I wasn’t around to see it start. I assume it “started” – and by a “force”. Possibly that force would be one envisioned by the worse sci-fi idea: a cardboard box in a galactic desert. Who says “it” even has to be animate?

A thinking person can only say that they don’t know. That is a rational, truthful answer. Inventing an atheist answer is not truthful. One can only be an agnostic.

By: european atheist

european atheist — Sat, 18 Jul 2009 01:01:20 +0000

1961 verabschiedet das stark katholisch geprägte Land dazu ein entsprechendes Gesetz. Dieses sei durch die neue Reform jetzt klarer gefasst worden, meinte der Justizminister. So muss nachgewiesen werden, dass der Übeltäter bewusst eine Störung des öffentlichen Friedens herbeiführen wollte und die Gefühle der Gläubigen erheblich verletzt habe.

Mehr Rechtssicherheit also für Blasphemie-Täter? Das sieht die atheistische Organisation “Atheist Ireland” anders: Die Strafe von 25.000 Euro sei drakonisch, kritisieren die Aktivisten. Sie fordern eine ersatzlose Streichung des Paragraphen.

Umfragen zeigen allerdings, dass eine Mehrheit der Bevölkerung das neue Gesetz begrüßt. Rückendeckung kommt ebenso von der einflussreichen katholischen Kirche. Knapp 87 Prozent der Iren sind Katholiken.

By: european atheist

european atheist — Sat, 18 Jul 2009 01:00:26 +0000

Harte Zeiten für Atheisten
Blasphemie-Paragraph in Irland

17.07.2009, 14:13

Von Andreas Oldag. London

In Irland soll Gotteslästerung neuerdings mit einer Geldstrafe von bis zu 25.000 Euro belegt werden. Eine Mehrheit der Bevölkerung befürwortet das Gesetz.
Dawkins; APGrossbild

Richard Dawkins: Der britische Religionsgegner wettert gegen die Iren. (Foto: AP)

Der bekennende Atheist und Bestseller-Autor (“Der Gotteswahn”) Richard Dawkins zeigt sich empört. Irland sei auf dem Weg zurück ins Mittelalter, wetterte der britische Professor. In dem ohnehin schon sensiblen Verhältnis zwischen Irland und Großbritannien sorgen solche Worte für Zündstoff.

Dawkins hat sich in einen innenpolitischen Streit eingemischt, der seit Tagen die Grüne Insel beschäftigt. Es geht um ein Reform eines Gesetzes zur üblen Nachrede, das auch eine Passage zur Blasphemie enthält. Danach kann Gotteslästerung neuerdings mit einer Geldstrafe von bis zu 25.000 Euro belegt werden.

Das Parlament hat das Gesetz mit einer Stimme Mehrheit Mitte Juli verabschiedet. Trotz erheblicher Kritik vieler Abgeordneter verteidigte Justizminister Dermot Ahern die neuen Regelungen mit dem Hinweis auf die irische Verfassung von 1937. Dort heißt es, dass die Veröffentlichung von “gotteslästerlichem, umstürzlerischem oder unsittlichem Material” strafbar sei.